Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

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Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 16:42

Hello everyone!


Over the past few months, the team has been working on a new set of Forum Rules. We hope that you will feel that the rules are clear and fair. 


We do appreciate your feedback, so if you have any comments or questions, feel free to post a reply to this topic. Keep in mind however, that we will not take every comment or suggestion in consideration. If you would rather discuss your critique in private, you may contact an Administrator.


Last edited by Edin ElDi on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:21; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 17:18

Typo: "gender/sexe"

From my understanding of the rules it seems that messages can be deleted if they contain personal contact information or if a complaint is received for copyright or legal violations. Are these the only conditions under which messages will be deleted?


Last edited by knorella on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 17:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added Question)

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 17:41

I will fix the typo right away, thanks. 


You are free to edit/delete your own messages, the team may edit/delete any messages that don't conform to the rules.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 03:20

knorella wrote:Typo: "gender/sexe"

From my understanding of the rules it seems that messages can be deleted if they contain personal contact information or if a complaint is received for copyright or legal violations. Are these the only conditions under which messages will be deleted?


*Theoretically*, every message that breaks any forum rule can be deleted, but in practice actual deletion of messages is rather rare; instead we just edit/censor the post or if necessary move it to a special subsection of the forum that is only accessible to staff. 

For instance, we will typically edit swearing, name-calling, profanities, insults, unauthorized external (warez) links, inappropriate images/videos, adverts, and many other things too.


Edin ElDi wrote:I will fix the typo right away, thanks. 

You are free to edit/delete your own messages, the team may edit/delete any messages that don't conform to the rules.


There is another minor typo under rule 7. Keep in mind though please that it is solely up to the discretion of the Moderators and Administrators to allow exceptions...". Razz

//EDIT

Also, most of the "catchphrases" have a white underlining, while a few others have a red underline. I think the catchphrases should all have a uniform look. 


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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 06:58

I will check again later. When the kids are at school.
See? This is why I wanted us to go over this again, and we still missed a bunch of stuff Razz

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Thu 02 Jun 2016, 16:23

The_gh0stm4n wrote:



There is another minor typo under rule 7. Keep in mind though please that it is solely up to the discretion of the Moderators and Administrators to allow exceptions...". Razz

//EDIT

Also, most of the "catchphrases" have a white underlining, while a few others have a red underline. I think the catchphrases should all have a uniform look. 


Carlos is tha man




Both are now fixed.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by pixistix on Sat 04 Jun 2016, 22:55

Neither the link in the post nor the link in the forum header direct to the forum rules, they just send you back to the forum home page. Wanted to check them since I saw they'd changed, haha.
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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 02:25

pixistix wrote:Neither the link in the post nor the link in the forum header direct to the forum rules, they just send you back to the forum home page. Wanted to check them since I saw they'd changed, haha.


Hello @pixistix,


Both the link in Edin's opening post here as well as the button "Forum Rules" in the top toolbar lead to this page here:
http://games4theworld.bestgoo.com/register

Should it not be the case for you, try clearing your browser's cache and cookies. Smile  Typically you can press CTRL + SHIFT + DELETE, and this will bring up the appropriate options in your browser.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 10:35

The_gh0stm4n wrote:
pixistix wrote:Neither the link in the post nor the link in the forum header direct to the forum rules, they just send you back to the forum home page. Wanted to check them since I saw they'd changed, haha.


Hello @pixistix,


Both the link in Edin's opening post here as well as the button "Forum Rules" in the top toolbar lead to this page here:
http://games4theworld.bestgoo.com/register

Should it not be the case for you, try clearing your browser's cache and cookies. Smile  Typically you can press CTRL + SHIFT + DELETE, and this will bring up the appropriate options in your browser.

If you're logged in you are redirected to the homepage. You have to be logged out to see the register page. Alternatively you could just open the link in a private window.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 10:43

No you don't. If I click on either of those links, I am redirected to the "register" page.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:00

Edin ElDi wrote:No you don't. If I click on either of those links, I am redirected to the "register" page.

Might be different for staff?

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:17

knorella wrote:
Might be different for staff?


An interesting problem; it could indeed have something to do with the permissions. But more likely is this a glitch in the forum software. If it can't be fixed, we will just create a rules-thread on the regular forums, and link the toolbar-button to that topic instead.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:18

The_gh0stm4n wrote:
knorella wrote:
Might be different for staff?


An interesting problem; it could indeed have something to do with the permissions. But more likely is this a glitch in the forum software. If it can't be fixed, we will just create a rules-thread on the regular forums, and link the toolbar-button to that topic instead.

That's what I was thinking, it could be a topic in the news section.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:23

Done.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:44

Edin ElDi wrote:Done.


And I locked the topic. Razz  People should post their concerns either in this thread here, or create a new thread if really necessary.


//EDIT

I also reddened the catch-phrases and edited the last rule "accordingly", so that it conveys its proper meaning. Smile

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:25

Lol. I hadn't thought about that Razz
Could've been another disaster, thanks for catching that Laughing

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 18:11

Rule 13 states

Note that we will only remove accounts if there's a very good reason for it. Requests for account deletion just because you don't want to be a part of this Community any more, do not count as a valid reason.

Forumotion FAQ about 'Account Deletion: Administrator's Obligation' says
 
In accordance with article 34 of the data-processing law and freedoms of January 6, 1978, each member of a forum has a right of access, of modification, correction and suppression of the data which relate to it. This is why the administrator cannot refuse to remove an account.

Also, users can unsubscribe from forums directly through Forumotion (http://www.forumotion.com/unscribe). I believe it does not remove user messages, users must delete their individual Forum messages, but the provided link allows users to unsubscribe (essentially delete) their own account.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Adwomin on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 18:27

knorella wrote:Might be different for staff?
That is correct, this is a known issue. (Hence there was an unofficial "Up-to-date Rules" topic somewhere here. I should find and close it. (EDIT: found and updated HERE)
The Register button indeed seems to work differently when you're logged in as a team member on the Forum.
Alternatively you could just open a different browser (E.g. Internet Explorer, assuming you're (hopefully) not using it already) and use the link in there.

knorella wrote:Also, users can unsubscribe from forums directly through Forumotion (http://www.forumotion.com/unscribe). I believe it does not remove user messages, users must delete their individual Forum messages, but the provided link allows users to unsubscribe (essentially delete) their own account.
Good point, I'll add that link to the Rules, so users can unregister themselves. If users don't have a very good reason, I will personally not remove their account. And why would I, if they can do it themselves using that link anyway?

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 04:21

knorella wrote:Rule 13 states

Note that we will only remove accounts if there's a very good reason for it. Requests for account deletion just because you don't want to be a part of this Community any more, do not count as a valid reason.

Forumotion FAQ about 'Account Deletion: Administrator's Obligation' says
 
In accordance with article 34 of the data-processing law and freedoms of January 6, 1978, each member of a forum has a right of access, of modification, correction and suppression of the data which relate to it. This is why the administrator cannot refuse to remove an account.

Also, users can unsubscribe from forums directly through Forumotion (http://www.forumotion.com/unscribe). I believe it does not remove user messages, users must delete their individual Forum messages, but the provided link allows users to unsubscribe (essentially delete) their own account.


In addition to what has been said before, you should also try viewing it from an Administrator's perspective: severe actions like user account deletions require additional discussion (and work !) behind the scenes. Why is the user asking for the account deletion ? Does he or she have anything to hide ? Is there a possibility of legally dubious posts somewhere, and is that user attempting to evade legal prosecution ? In the passage that you quoted from Forumotion's page, there is another very important aspect. Which I will quote myself now.


Forumotion wrote:There is however an exception to this obligation:

In the event of a complaint (For racist insults, slandering, remarks, homophobes or revisionists remarks, etc...) against the person who asks for the suppression of his account, it should be known that the administrator cannot erase the data relating to the identification of this person (In particular IP address who allows to identify a person formally): it is legally held to be able to communicate with them during a one year deadline minimum (This to allow for example justice to find this person and to possibly initiate a procedure against that particular persone).


In any case, and legal obligations aside, if a user approaches us with a request to delete his or her account, it will always raise eyebrows - and further questions. I imagine the actual deletion in the Administrator-panel will just take a few clicks, but the discussion and work that is necessary behind all that may take more effort and time. 


In addition, we would like to encourage people to discuss with us (more): are they maybe wanting to delete their account because certain things offended them on the forum ? If so, what can be improved to accommodate the wishes of these people (too) ?

While I agree the original wording of the rule may have been a bit misleading, please also bear in mind that none of the active team members has English as his or her first language. I myself learned English at university-level, which is probably the main reason I am pretty fluent at it, lol. Razz  And I see the unsubscribe-link has been added to the forum rules now too.

In this sense I am surprised Forumotion introduced this possibility of a user-side unsubscription. But I'll assume that while the information related to an account may not be visible to the public, it will still be visible to the Admins. Especially IP-addresses, in the event there is indeed a complaint about the user who got their account deleted.



P.S. and in the strictest sense of the word, @Admin's original wording was not wrong. Misleading, maybe. But not wrong. A 'good reason' according to the old rule (I guess) would have been something along the lines of "I am upset that the forum is about piracy, and I morally cannot justify this". In contrast, deletion requests because you posted e.g. discriminatory content is NOT a good reason. If there is a reason to not delete an account or to delay the deletion for e.g. legal reasons, then we won't be deleting accounts. Period. Users can complain all they want to the forum host, but even in the event we do get a notification from the host, we will present the reasons for this. Such as the aforementioned legally dubious posts, and then wait for further developments. If the forum host agrees with us, then fine. If the forum host insists on the account deletion, then of course we will respect that too.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 09:13

I think the Forum Rules button leading to a locked thread is an elegant solution.

Just as a small note for future reference, the register page (http://games4theworld.bestgoo.com/register) redirecting to the home page when users are logged in isn't a glitch or an issue with the software. It's a purposeful design choice and common practice. You'll notice this same thing in any website with a dedicated register/signup page. Take for example Twitter, if you are already logged in, their register page (https://twitter.com/signup) takes you to the home page. And it makes sense because in general register/signup are simply used to register users, so for user is who are registered and logged in the register/signup page becomes redundant.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:37

@The_gh0stm4n, this is in response to your latest comment. I didn't want to quote the entire message because of it's length. Smile

In my previous comment where I mentioned Rule 13, I did so only because Rule 13 seemed to be in contrast with Forumotion’s deletion policy. Not because of word choice but because of the example Rule 13 gave.

Forgetting about the exception in Forumotion’s policy for a moment, Forumotion explicitly says that an “administrator cannot refuse to remove an account.” So regardless of the reason a user gives, administrators—according to Forumotion—cannot refuse to remove an account.

Now, the exception Forumotion mentions from my understanding says that if there is a complaint against an account, the administrators cannot erase data relating to that account/person's identity (example IP).

So essentially Forumotion is saying administrators can refuse but only if there is a complaint against the account/user.

Personally, I don’t think that a request for a removal of an account should be met with suspicion, but then again I’m not the mod/admin of this forum. The staff here know what their members get up to better than I do. There’s a wide range of reasonable reasons people could request that an account be removed: they just don’t like the username, outgrown the community topic, or maybe just trying to remove their Google search footprint. And I also think that’s why Forumotion implemented the unsubscribe feature, to make removal of an account less of a hassle.

Also, if a user does want’s to remove their account to suppress material that may be considered offensive, according to Forumotion, as long as no one has complained, the user is well within their rights to remove that account. Removing an account is considered “suppression of [an] account” and “each member[/account] of a forum has a right of … suppression of the data which relate to it."

The intricacies of why or when accounts can and should be removed, I would personally leave to the discretion of people who run this site. My intention here was simply to highlight the policy of the host and help avoid any issue with said host.

All this being said, I think Admin’s choice of take unsubscribing out of the staff hands, is and effective solution. A user want’s to be unsubscribed, there’s the link. Simple.


Last edited by knorella on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 10:41; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Adwomin on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 15:16

The_gh0stm4n wrote:P.S. and in the strictest sense of the word, @Admin's original wording was not wrong. Misleading, maybe. But not wrong. A 'good reason' according to the old rule (I guess) would have been something along the lines of "I am upset that the forum is about piracy, and I morally cannot justify this".
What? Was my English not clear enough?
I don't believe "I'm upset about the Forum being about piracy" is a good reason to justify the removal of your account.
It's like signing up for a dating website, and then realising that you're upset about the website being about dating (and thus requesting account deletion). Of course that is a whole different situation, because a dating website is way more personal, but you get the idea.

And besides, a dating website gives you an option to remove your account manually. And so does Forumotion.

knorella wrote:Just as a small note for future reference, the register page (http://games4theworld.bestgoo.com/register) redirecting to the home page when users are logged in isn't a glitch or an issue with the software. It's a purposeful design choice and common practice.
Of course, that's obvious. You don't have to register again if you're logged in.
The observation we talked about, is that team members will see the Rules page after clicking on the Register button while logged in.

knorella wrote:There’s a wide range of reasonable reasons people could request that an account be removed: they just don’t like the username, outgrown the community topic, or maybe just trying to remove their Google search footprint. And I also think that’s why Forumotion implemented the unsubscribe feature, to make removal of an account less of a hassle.
Removing an account, just because you don't like the username? How does that justify removing an entire account from a Forum?
There's a reason username changes are not allowed (as on pretty much every other Forum out there). There are only a few services (And I'm also talking about things like online games, chat services, etc.) that actually allow username changes.
Imagine at least one member sending a PM to me or Edin every day, asking: "Hey, can you remove my account permanently, because I don't like my username and didn't bother to think about one more carefully when I signed up? tyvm!"

There are plenty of good reasons to have an account deleted from the Forum. I don't sum them up here, to prevent everyone for using that as an excuse to justify their account deletion.
If one is trying to "remove their Google search footprint", then they should contact Google.

knorella wrote:(...)  Forumotion explicitly says that an “administrator cannot refuse to remove an account.” So regardless of the reason a user gives, administrators—according to Forumotion—cannot refuse to remove an account.
Sue me if I refuse.

knorella wrote:My intention here was simply to highlight the policy of the host and help avoid any issue with said host.
And that is appreciated, thank you for your feedback.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by The_gh0stm4n on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 19:58

knorella wrote:I think the Forum Rules button leading to a locked thread is an elegant solution.

Just as a small note for future reference, the register page (http://games4theworld.bestgoo.com/register) redirecting to the home page when users are logged in isn't a glitch or an issue with the software. It's a purposeful design choice and common practice. You'll notice this same thing in any website with a dedicated register/signup page. Take for example Twitter, if you are already logged in, their register page (https://twitter.com/signup) takes you to the home page. And it makes sense because in general register/signup are simply used to register users, so for user is who are registered and logged in the register/signup page becomes redundant.

Sounds reasonable to me, though I would hope that for classic internet forum software, there was a modification (and besides, why not attempt to challenge existing practices and break them down at least in a thought experiment ?).

I'm not sure social media can serve as a good comparison here. For a start, one of the most fundamental differences between social media networks and classic internet forums is that on social media you can de-facto post almost anything you like. Take the likes of Reddit, 4chan, Facebook & Twitter. Sure you can get banned there too, and yes, they all have certain community guidelines, but in practice at least my impression is that almost anything goes. These big platforms rely heavily on automated moderation (word/image-filter algorithms, etc.) or certain more community-based evaluation systems (see the upvote/downvote-model on Reddit, report systems elsewhere, etc.). Direct interaction between senior staff and regular members on these platforms is rather rare. There is no need to remind users to "have another look at the rules on the signup-page", hence it doesn't matter whether you are linked back to the homepage when clicking on the signup-button while logged in. Most social media users don't care anyway. And a lot of them are fond of "freedom of speech" and consequently would not take kindly to any Administrator-interventions. Plus, take into account that these platforms also generally want to appeal to as many as possible, hence you almost "have" to be lax in allowing different types of utterances.

Now compare that to the situation on forums, that are typically operated by a small(ish) group of people, are about a relatively narrow subject matter, and typically also try to cater to certain demographics or interest groups only. On these smaller sites there will be LOTS of interaction between staff and regular users. And yes, forums tend to also have tighter rules and guidelines. In that sense I would wish you could direct logged-in regular users to the register-page again. Coding the register-page so that it won't "re-register" existing users should not be too much of a rocket-science, but of course, in the case of Forumotion I can't complain (since the service is free of charge). Over the years, I have been on various other forums, with different forum software like vBulletin or XenForo. Not sure how the issue is handled there, but I guess logged-in/existing users cannot access the register-page again.

Either way, I would like to believe that the (practical !) needs of a big social media network compared to a small internet forum will somewhat differ.


knorella wrote:@The_gh0stm4n, this is in response to your latest comment. I didn't want to quote the entire message because of it's length. Smile

In my previous comment where I mentioned Rule 13, I did so only because Rule 13 seemed to be in contrast with Forumotion’s deletion policy. Not because of word choice but because of the example Rule 13 gave.

Forgetting about the exception in Forumotion’s policy for a moment, Forumotion explicitly says that an “administrator cannot refuse to remove an account.” So regardless of the reason a user gives, administrators—according to Forumotion—cannot refuse to remove an account.

Now, the exception Forumotion mentions from my understanding says that if there is a complaint against an account, the administrators cannot erase data relating to that account/person's identity (example IP).

So essentially Forumotion is saying administrators can refuse but only if there is a complaint against the account/user.

Personally, I don’t think that a request for a removal of an account should be met with suspicion, but then again I’m not the mod/admin of this forum. The staff here know what their members get up to better than I do. There’s a wide range of reasonable reasons people could request that an account be removed: they just don’t like the username, outgrown the community topic, or maybe just trying to remove their Google search footprint. And I also think that’s why Forumotion implemented the unsubscribe feature, to make removal of an account less of a hassle.

Also, if a user does want’s to remove their account to suppress material that may be considered offensive, according to Forumotion, as long as no one has complained, the user is well within their rights to remove that account. Removing an account is considered “suppression of [an] account” and “each member[/account] of a forum has a right of … suppression of the data which relate to it."


See the part I highlighted in bold red color. Easy "fix" for that: namely that the person filing a complaint is either me or another team member. I am aware that as staff I should not get too emotionally involved in these things. But theoretically, I myself could as well be the person filing the complaint, even if the slanderous messages aren't (directly) aimed at me. 



Admin wrote:
The_gh0stm4n wrote:P.S. and in the strictest sense of the word, @Admin's original wording was not wrong. Misleading, maybe. But not wrong. A 'good reason' according to the old rule (I guess) would have been something along the lines of "I am upset that the forum is about piracy, and I morally cannot justify this".

What? Was my English not clear enough?
I don't believe "I'm upset about the Forum being about piracy" is a good reason to justify the removal of your account.
It's like signing up for a dating website, and then realising that you're upset about the website being about dating (and thus requesting account deletion). Of course that is a whole different situation, because a dating website is way more personal, but you get the idea.

And besides, a dating website gives you an option to remove your account manually. And so does Forumotion.


Sorry man if my post was insulting, but getting back to my example, people may not always be aware of what a forum is about when registering. It may be an idea to slightly re-phrase the thing with "you need to have a very good reason", since it can indeed lead to further confusion. I personally couldn't think of anything that will count as a good reason, even with all my experience on here (sounds stupid, but yes Facepalm ). And I doubt the average regular user can gain a better idea about this. But then, it's good enough that there is now a link for the manual unsubscription. Smile

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by Guest on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 23:15

Admin wrote:The observation we talked about, is that team members will see the Rules page after clicking on the Register button while logged in.
This too is common practice. Team members (at least some) need to see the register/signup page page even while logged in for the obvious purpose of editing the contents of the register/signup page.


Admin wrote:Removing an account, just because you don't like the username? How does that justify removing an entire account from a Forum?
Why not? Maybe the account was created years ago and MrsPeachface went through some hard times; can't stand the name MrsPeachface anymore and now wants to be called MissPeachface. As you pointed out, Forumotion doesn't allow username change so removing the old account and creating a new one seems one solution.

Hyperbole aside, I personally don't see why users need to justify their desire to remove their account. Users didn't have to explain why they wanted to create an account in the first place so why must they justify their desire to remove it?


Admin wrote:Imagine at least one member sending a PM to me or Edin every day, asking: "Hey, can you remove my account permanently, because I don't like my username and didn't bother to think about one more carefully when I signed up? tyvm!"
I can see how this would quickly become bothersome. I guess it's great then that Forummotion has that convenient unsubscribe feature.


Admin wrote:If one is trying to "remove their Google search footprint", then they should contact Google.
By "Google search footprint" I meant the search result that comes up when you search your username/name. This is going off topic here, but as far as I'm aware Google only accepts request to remove personal information, an alias username doesn't exactly count.


The_gh0stm4n wrote:Coding the register-page so that it won't "re-register" existing users should not be too much of a rocket-science
You're absolutely right, and I'm sure there are sites out there that do implement this. The single use signup page is just one design practice that has gained popularity in recent years. With more people using mobile devices to browse the web, websites tend to 'streamline' their sites and make it mobile-compatible by simplifying things and using single purpose pages. e.g register page, sign in page, rules page.


The_gh0stm4n wrote:...typically operated by a small(ish) group of people, are about a relatively narrow subject matter, and typically also try to cater to certain demographics or interest groups only.
You've just describes a subreddit there Oh my...


The_gh0stm4n wrote:Easy "fix" for that: namely that the person filing a complaint is either me or another team member. I am aware that as staff I should not get too emotionally involved in these things. But theoretically, I myself could as well be the person filing the complaint, even if the slanderous messages aren't (directly) aimed at me.
I admire the sneakiness ingenuity and agree, that does seem to work. It fits in just fine with my understanding of Forumotion's policies.

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Re: Heads up! Revised Forum Rules.

Post by ☠ ~ Aɳɳ ~ ☠ on Mon 06 Jun 2016, 23:41

Why are we still discussing this ... 
This forum has over 30,000 users, if even half of them wanted us to remove their accounts, it would be a HUGE pain in the you know where.


They can remove their own accounts, we do not have to. End of story.

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